Category: LGBT Discussion
I was thinking: if you are sexually attracted to males, but romantically attracted to women, does that make you bisexual, gay, straight, or something else? If you separate romance from sex, what do you identify as? People want you to fit into a little box - gay, straight, bi, pan, asexual etc - but how would you explain to them if you don't?
I'll give an example, which is myself. I am more ROMANTICALLY attracted to males, but sexually attracted to both males and females. I class myself as bisexual, but really I'm bisexual heteroromantic. Except if someone asked me, "what's your sexuality?" I would say bisexual, because I suppose it's easier.
Interesting concept.
Isn’t romance sexual?
If you are with a girl in your case, don’t you have any tender feelings for her, or what to do special things for her that are not related to having sex?
You are interested in the physical with her, but don’t you have any need to hold her hand, kiss, and such things or do you just say, come on, and get to the physical.
After the physical is finished, you don't feel any softness for her?
It seem to me, a person that enjoys sex/romance on any level with both sexes is bisexual.
What do you think?
Hmmm, interesting. For myself, I'm very sexually attracted to men, and in most cases, I enjoy doing special things for the guy that I care about. However, I do enjoy spoiling a woman as well sometimes, but there's nothing sexual in it for me. Take the girl I dated all through high school for example. I enjoy buying her things that she won't buy for herself. I enjoy cooking her favorite dish, but I'm not attracted to her sexually. I've never been with a guy who wanted to be romantic with me in return.
Do you call that romance, or just good friendship Anthony?
That's a very interesting concept. I'd say that romance and sex can definitely be classed as different. I'd say you're physically bisexual but not in terms of romance... I've known people who don't feel romantic feelings for the people they sleep with; Friends with benefits arent' necessarily romantic twoard each other. So it's entirely possible. Unique though.
I wouldn't classify this as interesting, but rather silly.
it seems pretty straightforward to me that romance and sexuality are not one in the same.
for example, I occasionally do nice things for my friends, such as offer to take them out to lunch, send them thoughtful emails, let them know that I'm there for them if/whenever they would like me to be, ETC.
I do all those things cause I care about maintaining the friendships I've made, and those are a few simple ways for me to show my friends that I value their friendship, as well as who they are as people. there is nothing sexual/romantic about it.
I do similar things for my boyfriend, but there's much more to it than there is with strictly friendships.
the gestures towards him are done on a much deeper level, which, I think, is the key: considering the relationship at hand, then figuring out whether your perceptions are accurate, or if you're overthinking something that's actually self-explanatory.
I think this is as varied as there are many people. I'm hetro sexual I guess whatever that means. I do still have a lot of strong feelings for both my male and female friends and like to do nice things for them. The way I sea it romance is when strong feelings and sexual attraction intertwine but I do not think that's how everyone thinks of it. And even for myself this is complicated. I have often slept with a girl who's a very good friend of mine and she identifies as gay. So there's the sexual attraction and a whole lot of other feelings but our relationship is not what people usually describe as romantic and I don't think of it as romantic.
Sexuality and emotions are complicated things and they're definitely not cut in stone. Often we try to make rational sense of our own feelings and emotions and I've found that a lot of the time that simply doesn't work.
Bottom line is people should identify like they feel is appropriate for them or just not adhere to the labels we've created for these things. They just aren't good enough sometimes.
I meant to say that romance and sexuality are one in the same.
in the example I gave about doing nice things for my friends, there is no sexual attraction between us, nor am I carrying out said gestures because I feel romantic towards those friends. I simply wanna do something to help brighten their day/do my part in keeping our friendship strong.
This topic is interesting.
I can see sex with no romance. You have sex for the feelings, but you don’t send the person any gifts, or flowers, and such things. You are friends, and such.
Even in a friends with benefits relationship, there is feelings, but not necessarily romantic feelings.
But, how do you have romance without sex?
I've definitely had sex without romance, but not the other way around. Sex without romance is getting your rocks off, or being held temporarily or whatever, or maybe getting temporary affection. In other words, it's fun. You can have sex with a friend, and it's nothing more than being extremely friendly, for lack of a better explanation. But the guy I'm currently interested in is someone I wanna be romantic with if I get the chance. Romance, or love, or whatever, goes deeper than mere sex. The sex is fun, but romance/love deals more with the heart of the matter, I think. Does that make any sense?
I'm sorry, but I think the problem with the vast majority of these posts has
been that they've all started with the phrase "I think". Stop thinking, you're
not her. Most people are not as complicated as it appears this girl is, and I
want to wholeheartedly applaud her for delving into what can certainly be a
troubling concept. One's own sexuality and gender and ideas such as that
can be very difficult to come to grips with.
That being said, allow me to sprinkle a bit of illumination on the scene if I
can. First, Chelsea, you should just stop posting. Your ideas are silly,
frivolous, and absolutely unnecessary. I can't remember the last time you
actually added anything but length to a conversation.
Second, Jondy, romance without sex is absolutely possible. You and I may
not be able to imagine it, but that is because we are sexually attracted to
those we are romantically attracted to. That is to say, we find the same
people romantically and sexually attractive. But we are but one subset of
humanity. There are people who find looks and physical appearance
absolutely pointless. They are turned on, quite literally, by minds and
personalities. There are people who are not sexually interested in anyone.
There are people who are sexually interested in objects. There are people
who are sexually interested in themselves, and no one else. The spectrum is
much wider than it is probably possible to imagine.
So, that being said, I don't find it any stretch of the imagination
whatsoever to believe that Grey Waves, sorry I don't know your actual
name, is romantically attracted to one so-called gendered, and sexually
attracted to another. Perhaps she simply finds sexual characteristics of one
gender stimulating, and mental characteristics of another stimulating in a
romantic way. That doesn't seem so far fetched to me.
The key is to stop thinking in such binary ways as male and female, gay or
straight. Why do you think that little initialism keeps growing? I've heard
everything from LGBT, to LGBTQ, to LGBTQSSAI. I'm sure there are even
longer versions.
So that's my two cents. As for the original poster, I hope she finds
happiness, romantically and sexually, and if she ever needs someone to talk
to, I would happily offer my services free of charge.
I can see your point, but if a person is sexually motivated, usually romance and sex go together.
If she had said she wasn't interested in males sexually, I could buy romance without sex.
Even when we've got romance without sex, if things go well, sex will happen with people that are interested in sex.
A situation of that kind is normally people that are waiting to be married, or for a specific time to pass.
The original poster has to post and explain a bit more, so that was why the "I think statements"
She asked for an opinion.
Whoever said people are sexually motivated in everything? Sexuality is
much more complicated than you seem to think Wayne.
Grey Waves: I understand you wanting to find a descriptive set of words to describe yourself. Unlike some younger people on here, I understand. You've got 50,000 years of evolution behind you that made you a very verbal, language-rich culturally rich creature. All this need to do away with identifying characteristics and labels is just a fashionable thing among would-be academes right now. You're on the right track to be asking questions. But of course the answers will ultimately come from yourself.
I don't personally have the words to describe what you're talking about. But what you say makes sense, intuitively, if you will. After all, there are asexuals who are romantically attracted to other people, proving sex and romance don't have to be linked, or linked regarding the same person. I think there's a lot we don't know about this yet, and unfortunately much of what is said to be known is handled with dogma like religions. Just know that you and your situation have a lot to contribute as you continue to figure yourself out. And it's not a race: I can see you're under 18 still, by your profile. I know some really interesting middle age 40-somethings who haven't yet figured themselves all the way either.
Keep on asking, don't be afraid of using terminology to describe things -- despite the latest fashions -- you've a verbal language-centric brain that uses abstract terms to describe things. Hell, you may come up with your own definition and then be able to describe it to the rest of us so we understand it. Some asexual must have done that, so also the trans people who describe many of us as cisgendered ... a term that once understood makes a ton of sense.
Stay safe,
Leo
GreyWaves, you're still young, so try to focus on things that truly matter, such as the grades you make in school, goals you may have for yourself, ETC, rather than devoting your energy to focusing on something self-explanatory like one's sexuality.
it's only self-explanatory if the self understands it and can explain it. I think it makes sense the people would have questions about these types of matters like anything else. Unlike some, I'm unwilling to blame it on labels or blame it n anything, actually. It's just part of who and what we are. Hell people struggle for a long time to figure out their other interests, or any number of other things.
And a wide range of thoughts might help her in her goal.
I think we have the rite to say I think here. Grey waves probably knows what a blog post is and would have created one if she only wanted to write about this with minimal discussion.
it's everyone's right to say "these are my thoughts." that's what these boards are for, after all.
of course people struggle with figuring out what they wanna do in life, but that's very different from someone making a mountain out of a molehill with regards to their sexuality.
if they knew themselves, or took the time to get to know themselves, they wouldn't be confused about sexually-related things, and have to come to complete strangers on the internet for advice about how to handle things of a personal nature.
Then if it’s your right to say whatever you want on these boards, you should extend that right to everyone else. Even those who are “confused about sexually-related things,” and feel that they “have to come to complete strangers on the internet for advice about how to handle things of a personal nature.” If somethings are too personal for you to read, skip over them or ignore someone’s posts. Seems a pretty simple thing to do.
Chelsea, saying that other people would know themselves better if they
just took the time is a pretty bold statement from someone who can do
nothing more than cling to the coattails of other and better people. Have a
thought or two of your own and then come talk to me about knowing
yourself. Until then you're just a whiny bitch who just followed along with
whatever I said on these boards for a long time.
As for Chelsea's ignorant point, its simply wrong. Sexuality can be an
incredibly complicated and confusing idea, especially when you have society
throwing words like normal at you. This is why I don't think people should be
saying what their thoughts are. You should be saying what is true. The truth
is that the answer to the poster's question is yes, its entirely possible to
romantically like one gender and sexually like another.
I love it when people say that some of us make mountains out of molehills when it comes to sexuality. For them there’s only one truth. And that truth for them is that there is only one valid form of sexual expression – namely heterosexuality. Yet, as I’ve been saying numerous times since I’ve been on these boards, that’s all very well and good if you’re heterosexual in the first place. I wasn’t, so that so-called truth was anything but simple for me. As for people romantically liking one sex and sexually liking another, I have to concede the point. But it had to take some minor digging into my own psyche and history, both relatively distant and recent, to figure it all out. To wit, I was very emotionally invested in my marriage for a long time even though sexually I knew I had made a mistake. And we did a lot of romantic things together like going to one of our favorite restaurants and buying gifts for each other. I had a really good female friend at my job tell me about a year ago that she had a crush on me. I suppose I had developed a romantic liking for her; we were doing little things for one another all the time for a while. But I think that since I wasn’t responding overtly to the fact that she wanted more from me than I was willing to give, she grew pretty distant. Admittedly I was pretty hurt for a while about that, but then I’m not willing to make another mistake, especially with someone I considered to be a close friend.
If you call the emotion you have for a person you are not sexually interested in romantic, isn’t that miss placed sort of?
If we go by the human factor, movies, books, and such things, romance is always tied to love, sex.
If we are just doing good things for a person, that is normally called close friendship, because there is no anticipation of sexual interaction at some point with that person, or a hope to get there.
That is what I base my thoughts on.
The poster before me said he had a close relationship with a lady friend. Now, he had no sexual interest in her, but she had a crush on him, so if he’d opened the door, it would have gotten sexual.
He was just being close/friendship. She was trying to woo him/romance him.
Now if we add bisexual in the mix, having sex with say a girl in this case, is just sex pleasure and fun, but I suspect when it is a male involved that you really want more from then sex,you have stronger feelings. I suspect males are the favorite gender, the gender that turns you on more, or you could settle down with. You are not only good close friends, but can develop romantic love.
Romance is the type that makes your heart, or that deep emotion happen were you feel more for a person then sex, or even close friendship.
You think about that person. You learn there favorite color, so you can send the right flowers, maybe have a song you share or that makes you think of them, like that.
Now, the third and sad part of this, is the poster again before me. I believe the romantic stuff you did was just like the rest, forced.
Sure, I’ll agree you were emotionally invested in the relationship, but not like you’d have been if she were male. That for you would have put the cap on it, and now you’d probably think of him more often.
Just some thoughts.
I'm not sure the romance was forced. Yes, for me, the deeper romantic/sexual bond would be for someone of my own gender, but that doesn't mean that you can't be emotionally invested in someone rather deeply for it to be romantic. I think it's more complex than it seems on the surface. But I'm tired and I probably should be in bed if I wanna do well at my job tomorrow.
If it is possible to be sexually involved with someone without romance, it must certainly be possible to be romantically involved without sexual attraction. It is a very different and unfamiliar concept for many of us because we haven't experienced it, and it doesn't fit with all the things we've been taught about sex, love, romance, and friendship, but so what? Unheard of does not equal nonexistent.
It is perfectly okay to openly discuss your sexuality here, and to attempt to apply defining terms to your sexuality. I think you've done an adequate job of describing yourself as bisexual heteroromantic. It seems to explain the situation you outlined.
GreyWaves, I would like to gain a better understanding of what you mean. I have a very thought-provoking question, and if you are unable to answer it, or you feel uncomfortable answering it, I will have no hard feelings.
How do you distinguish romantic feelings from feelings of close friendship?
Let's say you have a male best friend, and you have romantic feelings for another guy. How do you distinguish the feelings for your best friend from the romantic feelings toward the other guy?
Wayne, just because you cannot do anything romantic without needing to
get a blow job afterwards, does not mean everyone is so shallow and
emotionless. It is entirely possible to have romantic, deep and lasting
romantic feelings without having or needing sex. There are people who are
not even sexually attracted to anyone, they're called asexual. In your world,
they would never be able to have romantic feelings because the only way
you can judge romantic feelings is if you get to touch her boobs when you do
something romantic together. Honestly, I pity your girlfriends.
I will agree that now all romantic doings lead to sexual interaction. I didn’t mean to suggest they do.
What I mean, is, and the poster25 sways it well, what we've been thought about romance.
Usually, when your feelings of friendship move to the romantic, you are emotionally invested in the person deeply.
That feeling borders on love, I guess, or you get a really warm feeling for that person.
Now, if you are a person that is sexual, not a sexual, romance is usually what leads to some sexual interaction at some point.
When you are romancing someone, you are closer then friendly. You’d hug more, touch more, and possibly kiss. These are not sexual in themselves, but could lead to sex if available, and you are a person that desires sex.
If I have a friend I like deeply, I think of that feeling at friendship.
I’d not take just a friend to a candle lighted dinner, nor would I walk with my friend holding hands. I’d not desire to kiss my friend in an intimate manner more than a peck on the cheek good bye.
Fore that reason, I have the same question as poster 25 as well. How do you distinguish romantic feelings from friendship?
It just seems to me, when you are really emotional invested, or deeply moved by a person, then you are in the romantic faze.
I personally don’t have the same desires for a close friend, nothing sexual, nor warm feelings like I do when I feel romantic.
It is just a difference of opinion, or definition I guess.
I couldn’t feel like it was romance if I didn’t have any desire for more from a person. For me, it just be close friendship.
Once it gets to romance, I want to spend time with them, be close to them, and touch them. I think about them during the day, so send the flowers, candy. I plan special outings, and such.
Wayne, you are exactly right in saying what you have; I feel the same way that you do.
I thought about the a sexual angle, and confess, I couldn't wrap my thoughts around how that would feel.
I think I'm tied to the intimate when it comes to romance, and have no intimate feelings at all, if there is no romance involved.
Therein lies your problem Wayne. You need to start looking at this from
someone els's angle. Clearly if the poster is not sexually attracted to a man,
but is romantically attracted to a man, or vice versa, then it is possible for
that person to separate sex from romance.
Now, in my relationships, I'm more on your side. Romance for me involves
sex or sexual desire. However, I'm not everyone. I am able to sympathize
with other people. In this case, I'm able to imagine how romance and sex
are different things.
Now, to answer your question as best I can. Romance is the intimate
personality. Sex is the intimate physical. Your physical feelings are sexual,
your mental feelings are romantic. Thus, they are separate.
In my case the romantic is a slightly deeper connection than deep friendship. It's really hard for me personally to explain except to say that it's almost a wishful thinking kinda thing. With this woman at work, it's sort of like I wish I could feel sexually available because she might be someone I'd be interested in if she had the right parts, and if I wasn't as unwilling to risk hurting someone else again. I'm not interested in traveling down that road again. Might hurt someone else in the short run, but in the long run it's better. But romance versus sex, I think, is simply too hard to quantify. I find the easiest way for me is to use my own personal scale. Acquaintance is just that; you don't feel any ill feelings, but you simply don't feel any strong emotional attachments either. Then there's friendship, and then deep friendship like best-friend category, and then there's the emotional attachment of somewhere between a very deep friendship and sexual feelings that must be sort of romance. I still feel those for my ex in a lot of ways. Maybe it's because she was, forlack of a better word, home to me for a good stretch of time. Then there's the sexual, which in its own way can be a mix of sex and romance, or it can be two friends screwing to have fun. However it goes, I don't think there are words that any one person can use to quantify or qualify this or that particular relationship. It doesn't even make sense for me to try; just do no harm and have fun.
Johndy, I have a couple questions I'd like to ask, due to your unique situation. I’ve wanted to ask them before, but the topics never lended themselves to the subject.
If it is to personal let me know.
You were married for a while. I don't know how long that was, will you say?
Next, during that relationship, I can totally understand how you had deep emotions for her, and still do.
My question is, because you are gay, and came to respect it, or embrace it totally, how was your sexual, or physical feelings for her handled?
You had the deep emotional feelings I associate with romantic, and I assume you were sexually involved with her on a regular bases maybe?
Help me with this if you will?
I only know of one other woman that did as you did, but she avoided sexual contact with her husband as often as possible, and for her it was more like an arrangement, or something she had to do, but she was unhappy, and it only lasted a short time.
Thanks in advance if you answer.
Cody is right RE: empathizing with other people's points of view and situation.
Here is where I do part ways with most in the third wave, however. What the
original poster, in all her confusion and reaching out, is doing, is enlightening
the rest of us. Now it's all cool and trendy to use language and memes to entrap
everybody as a misogynist or something. It's just a fashionable trend, no more
and no less. But people like the OP to this thread have made great contributions
to others' understanding. Just by speaking up about her situation. I'm no longer
ashamed to state plainly that before she did so, I didn't really understand the
notion of sexually attracted to one gender and romantically attracted to another.
But with a simple query and some thoughts, it's been laid out in such a way that
it makes sense. And she has done so without vitriol, malice, and blaming. Grey
Waves, if you take anything away from this, I hope it's a little more confidence -
- something every young person can use more of -- and that you can stand a
little taller, be a little prouder of yourself. You've educated some of us in a very
meaningful way, so thank you.
No worries. Officially I was married for almost ten years until the divorce was final; we were separated for almost a year. At the beginning of our relationship, I thought I was more flexible than I was, and our sex life wasn’t bad. I think she got far more out of it than I did, and frankly, I enjoyed the fact that I apparently pleased her rather well. Our sex life was more active before we were married, and when things started going wrong, I don’t think I felt as safe with her as I once did. For a long time we were both unhappy, and for the last five years of the marriage we didn’t have sex. She wanted it; I didn’t. I wanted a guy or guys, felt guilty about it, and basically shut down. For a while I think the romantic side of it bolstered the sexual part of it to where I could function, until (a) I faced my own reality, and (b) we both became unhappy and tried to find our way back. We never really did. There is a lot I don’t want to say out of respect for her, so I won’t. Let’s just say that from now on, I’d rather be alone than be in another bad situation. I wish in some ways I could give this woman what she apparently wanted from me, but to try it at this juncture would be just too wrong in too many ways.
Thank you again.
Hi everyone. I am SO sorry for not posting a reply to this. At all.
Right, so I love everyone's contributions to this, whether it be just asking questions, adding your opinion or challenging others' opinions.
Romance, for me, is wanting to be with them much more than a best friend. It is a really strong feeling, which is difficult to describe - I could say 'I love you', but it would be more than if I said 'I love you' to one of my friends, because that would be platonic. Sorry, I'm not making any sense.
But the sexual part is wanting to hug them, kiss them, or do something more.
I think everyone has a right to their opinion; I also think that anything on the scale of romance vs. sex, and sexuality, is possible. You can prefer one gender sometimes, and another the next - there are so many variables. Chelsea said something along the lines of 'sexuality is simple.' I don't agree: it can take you years to realise who you like, or that you don't like anyone. I have a friend who is asexual, but biromantic; they wouldn't want to sleep with their partner but they have romantic feelings for them.
But I can't really contribute any more; everyone else has done a great job of that already. Also, I hope that with my original post, I've managed to 'enlighten' people as Leo said.